1 00:00:03,190 --> 00:00:06,340 [Music] 2 00:00:34,989 --> 00:00:40,100 welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world 3 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:42,739 with me George Galloway and me Gayatri 4 00:00:40,100 --> 00:00:45,470 for two centuries the clash of ideas 5 00:00:42,739 --> 00:00:48,860 without violence has been a hallmark of 6 00:00:45,470 --> 00:00:51,739 speakers corner in Hyde Park London the 7 00:00:48,860 --> 00:00:55,339 brilliant and the bonkers gather every 8 00:00:51,739 --> 00:00:58,129 Sunday and proselytized Christian 9 00:00:55,339 --> 00:01:01,339 Muslims and Jews Buddhists and druids 10 00:00:58,129 --> 00:01:03,800 leftist rightist and centrist the famous 11 00:01:01,339 --> 00:01:06,530 and the absolutely obscure literally 12 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:09,080 take to their soap boxes and talk or how 13 00:01:06,530 --> 00:01:11,690 they talk and somehow it never comes to 14 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:14,570 blows it is a cacophony that has always 15 00:01:11,690 --> 00:01:16,970 fascinated me I first visited speaker's 16 00:01:14,570 --> 00:01:19,009 corner in the 1960s there's a small 17 00:01:16,970 --> 00:01:19,670 child you understand and I still go 18 00:01:19,009 --> 00:01:21,560 today 19 00:01:19,670 --> 00:01:23,600 maybe I've learned a thing or two in the 20 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:25,940 last half century who knows 21 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:28,340 our first guest has created a virtual 22 00:01:25,940 --> 00:01:30,320 speakers corner on the Internet and so 23 00:01:28,340 --> 00:01:32,450 the fame of one small corner of London 24 00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:35,060 Park is now spreading worldwide 25 00:01:32,450 --> 00:01:35,899 he's Basheer's I'm from Lebanon the 26 00:01:35,060 --> 00:01:38,330 South of France 27 00:01:35,899 --> 00:01:41,299 the United States well everywhere really 28 00:01:38,330 --> 00:01:43,670 and he's brought his soap box on to the 29 00:01:41,299 --> 00:01:47,630 Sputnik bhashya welcome thank you it is 30 00:01:43,670 --> 00:01:49,759 a fantastic idea I must say a virtual 31 00:01:47,630 --> 00:01:52,759 speakers corner because of course not 32 00:01:49,759 --> 00:01:54,950 everyone can get to London and see the 33 00:01:52,759 --> 00:01:58,009 the real thing where did that idea come 34 00:01:54,950 --> 00:02:00,320 from the idea came literally of what you 35 00:01:58,009 --> 00:02:02,689 just said no one can come to London and 36 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:06,320 I was lucky enough to visit the 37 00:02:02,689 --> 00:02:09,590 speaker's corner in 2003-2004 before the 38 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:11,239 social media changed the world and at 39 00:02:09,590 --> 00:02:13,970 that time I was fascinated like well 40 00:02:11,239 --> 00:02:15,739 same words you've used and this is 41 00:02:13,970 --> 00:02:19,489 something civilized Muslims Christians 42 00:02:15,739 --> 00:02:21,200 Jews talking like normal human humans 43 00:02:19,489 --> 00:02:22,970 should talk and my part of the world 44 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,700 this is a dream come true 45 00:02:22,970 --> 00:02:28,370 so after social media I kept going there 46 00:02:25,700 --> 00:02:32,030 due to Facebook Twitter changing the 47 00:02:28,370 --> 00:02:33,890 world I said why not help third world 48 00:02:32,030 --> 00:02:36,230 countries in particular this is because 49 00:02:33,890 --> 00:02:38,180 of Arab Spring at that time to make a 50 00:02:36,230 --> 00:02:40,549 change instead of was easy and Tony's 51 00:02:38,180 --> 00:02:43,820 going and burning himself to share his 52 00:02:40,549 --> 00:02:45,290 message and buying for nothing I said we 53 00:02:43,820 --> 00:02:47,280 need a speaker's corner in every part of 54 00:02:45,290 --> 00:02:49,350 the world not everyone is lucky to 55 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,459 come here but everyone we can do take 56 00:02:49,350 --> 00:02:52,770 add other way around this is how we 57 00:02:50,459 --> 00:02:54,780 started in 2014 and started on the 58 00:02:52,770 --> 00:02:55,350 project and I think we are on the very 59 00:02:54,780 --> 00:02:58,020 right track 60 00:02:55,350 --> 00:03:00,810 now I my wife is expert but I'm not so 61 00:02:58,020 --> 00:03:03,060 expert on the on the technical side of 62 00:03:00,810 --> 00:03:05,130 all this how does it actually work 63 00:03:03,060 --> 00:03:06,780 all right it acts as if you are 64 00:03:05,130 --> 00:03:08,580 literally in the speaker's corner you do 65 00:03:06,780 --> 00:03:11,340 something we call it a beam it's their 66 00:03:08,580 --> 00:03:13,319 video you say whatever you want to 67 00:03:11,340 --> 00:03:16,080 anyone you decide who can watch it most 68 00:03:13,319 --> 00:03:18,150 of the people choose everyone and anyone 69 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:21,330 any part of the world can attract back 70 00:03:18,150 --> 00:03:23,340 to do either audio-visual or just audio 71 00:03:21,330 --> 00:03:25,950 and you have a very interesting feature 72 00:03:23,340 --> 00:03:27,780 two countries like North Korea say that 73 00:03:25,950 --> 00:03:29,310 have no democracy at all we have an 74 00:03:27,780 --> 00:03:31,080 anonymous feature you can hide your 75 00:03:29,310 --> 00:03:33,480 identity so you can say something by 76 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:35,610 your voice or you can record documents 77 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:40,200 or whatever so we gave chances even to 78 00:03:35,610 --> 00:03:42,569 the most likely Tator countries to to 79 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:44,519 share their opinion and so we have three 80 00:03:42,569 --> 00:03:47,519 features someone from Brazil can attract 81 00:03:44,519 --> 00:03:49,830 to someone London or someone from Israel 82 00:03:47,519 --> 00:03:51,600 or someone from Ukraine or any part of 83 00:03:49,830 --> 00:03:54,739 where you have little freedom speech 84 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:57,090 Algeria Arab countries GCC countries 85 00:03:54,739 --> 00:03:59,070 anywhere in the world even now in the 86 00:03:57,090 --> 00:04:01,440 States you have too many things going on 87 00:03:59,070 --> 00:04:03,630 so we are allowing everyone to talk with 88 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:06,420 everyone and no no everything is allowed 89 00:04:03,630 --> 00:04:08,640 and this all have presumably you 90 00:04:06,420 --> 00:04:11,040 download an app it's a free app you 91 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,840 download Aria of course yeah it's 92 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:15,480 encouraging freedom of speech it should 93 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:18,120 be something for free of course or yes 94 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:19,650 it's been you decide the topic basically 95 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:22,200 people and speakers corner talk about 96 00:04:19,650 --> 00:04:25,370 politics and religion yeah you talk 97 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:28,320 about anything we think faster but this 98 00:04:25,370 --> 00:04:31,140 sports I think you can share it further 99 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:32,729 yes that's the point all the languages 100 00:04:31,140 --> 00:04:35,160 so all I've got to do is put my phone in 101 00:04:32,729 --> 00:04:37,530 front of my face and deliver a few 102 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:40,380 minutes on what I think on the latest 103 00:04:37,530 --> 00:04:42,330 issues of the day and that is seen by 104 00:04:40,380 --> 00:04:43,890 everyone else of course who has the app 105 00:04:42,330 --> 00:04:45,840 if they want to if they want if they are 106 00:04:43,890 --> 00:04:47,310 following you and we have a notification 107 00:04:45,840 --> 00:04:49,830 once once whenever you say something 108 00:04:47,310 --> 00:04:51,660 everyone will know and people can decide 109 00:04:49,830 --> 00:04:56,130 how they comment back we don't have 110 00:04:51,660 --> 00:04:58,349 texting no text and that's for a reason 111 00:04:56,130 --> 00:04:59,400 and I park to discuss not you don't 112 00:04:58,349 --> 00:05:02,370 write a letter and give it 113 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:03,900 so George is belem texting can create 114 00:05:02,370 --> 00:05:05,699 too many fake accounts like on Twitter I 115 00:05:03,900 --> 00:05:08,520 remember still remember once I was in a 116 00:05:05,699 --> 00:05:11,910 debate in Washington and someone said 117 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:13,259 the Russian foreign ambassador said so 118 00:05:11,910 --> 00:05:15,210 foreign minister sorry it said something 119 00:05:13,259 --> 00:05:17,729 about Syria and it was a fake account 120 00:05:15,210 --> 00:05:19,860 but until they discovered was a fake 121 00:05:17,729 --> 00:05:22,259 account the treaty made a buzz 122 00:05:19,860 --> 00:05:24,630 so it's either mr. George Galloway or 123 00:05:22,259 --> 00:05:33,419 mrs. Galloway or it's not you cannot 124 00:05:24,630 --> 00:05:36,780 fake because fascinating don't make me 125 00:05:33,419 --> 00:05:38,669 sick so I wish I'd thought how is it 126 00:05:36,780 --> 00:05:42,090 going how's it doing so far so good 127 00:05:38,669 --> 00:05:45,930 like for example snapchat took one one 128 00:05:42,090 --> 00:05:47,370 year to reach 100,000 users luckily and 129 00:05:45,930 --> 00:05:48,990 three months and we come in from 130 00:05:47,370 --> 00:05:50,910 backwards usually we inherit Facebook 131 00:05:48,990 --> 00:05:52,080 Twitter Instagram those platforms and we 132 00:05:50,910 --> 00:05:54,690 were doing this from London and we 133 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:56,729 started and poor places and where 134 00:05:54,690 --> 00:05:58,620 democracy is really sensitive we're 135 00:05:56,729 --> 00:06:00,660 almost 100 thousand and two months and 136 00:05:58,620 --> 00:06:02,400 we are aiming to reach 1 million and by 137 00:06:00,660 --> 00:06:04,199 the end of this year and we will spread 138 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:08,220 it like I we were trying to create a 139 00:06:04,199 --> 00:06:10,010 culture or something a synonym for the 140 00:06:08,220 --> 00:06:14,000 speaker's corner everywhere in the world 141 00:06:10,010 --> 00:06:17,190 it's a fantastic concept of course 142 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:19,680 emerged from specifically British 143 00:06:17,190 --> 00:06:22,229 conditions yes you could never get a 144 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:25,050 speaker's corner in if you don't mind me 145 00:06:22,229 --> 00:06:26,849 saying Riyadh you could get one in 146 00:06:25,050 --> 00:06:30,620 Beirut but you'd probably be dead by the 147 00:06:26,849 --> 00:06:34,380 by the end of the of the session 148 00:06:30,620 --> 00:06:36,720 George aww is better than war war I 149 00:06:34,380 --> 00:06:39,000 spent as you may know 30 years in the 150 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:43,590 British Parliament the two sides are 151 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:45,960 exactly one sort and one foot apart one 152 00:06:43,590 --> 00:06:48,449 you have to stick yes in Parliament and 153 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:50,099 you have to stay behind the line so if 154 00:06:48,449 --> 00:06:53,099 you stray across the line you can no 155 00:06:50,099 --> 00:06:54,180 longer talk which means literally and 156 00:06:53,099 --> 00:06:56,699 metaphorically 157 00:06:54,180 --> 00:06:58,470 you mustn't come to blows here you can 158 00:06:56,699 --> 00:07:00,210 argue as fiercely as you like 159 00:06:58,470 --> 00:07:02,010 but if you stay behind that red line you 160 00:07:00,210 --> 00:07:06,659 literally can't come to blows even with 161 00:07:02,010 --> 00:07:09,300 our sort so I mean I'm not that proud of 162 00:07:06,659 --> 00:07:12,120 much of what Britain does or has done 163 00:07:09,300 --> 00:07:14,729 but I'm pretty proud of speakers 164 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:18,570 corner do you find as you go around the 165 00:07:14,729 --> 00:07:20,430 world as you you do that people that the 166 00:07:18,570 --> 00:07:21,510 fame of this place is already 167 00:07:20,430 --> 00:07:23,729 established yes 168 00:07:21,510 --> 00:07:25,530 honest to be honest yes yes this is a 169 00:07:23,729 --> 00:07:28,530 big achievement for London and I'm 170 00:07:25,530 --> 00:07:30,810 privileged to be helping spreading this 171 00:07:28,530 --> 00:07:33,090 worldwide I consider myself lucky to be 172 00:07:30,810 --> 00:07:34,740 able to do this platform and I think yes 173 00:07:33,090 --> 00:07:36,720 we have congratulate for the British 174 00:07:34,740 --> 00:07:40,590 people since 1872 it's not something new 175 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:43,110 it's something is I was in tremendous 176 00:07:40,590 --> 00:07:45,690 our journey in politics and against the 177 00:07:43,110 --> 00:07:47,970 king of insanity there was governments 178 00:07:45,690 --> 00:07:51,090 changing parties splitting it was a 179 00:07:47,970 --> 00:07:53,760 unique moment that like the moment we 180 00:07:51,090 --> 00:07:56,880 might not be might not be and the reason 181 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:58,889 I asked you that question is most of the 182 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,139 people watching this will be British and 183 00:07:58,889 --> 00:08:03,240 most of them will never have gone to 184 00:08:01,139 --> 00:08:05,760 speaker's corner because one of the 185 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:09,720 characteristics is that it's foreign 186 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:12,780 people who mainly go so you may achieve 187 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:15,870 something unique you may get British 188 00:08:12,780 --> 00:08:17,490 people now I was starting to key into 189 00:08:15,870 --> 00:08:19,139 speaker's corner in a way that they have 190 00:08:17,490 --> 00:08:22,500 and this is my dream honestly to have 191 00:08:19,139 --> 00:08:25,979 British people on speakers corner it 192 00:08:22,500 --> 00:08:28,560 will make it genuine mmm give it 193 00:08:25,979 --> 00:08:30,599 credibility and everyone is welcome to 194 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,459 share like someone from Israel or 195 00:08:30,599 --> 00:08:34,589 someone from Brazil or any part of the 196 00:08:32,459 --> 00:08:36,870 world can discuss someone from Britain 197 00:08:34,589 --> 00:08:38,940 and definitely definitely it will solve 198 00:08:36,870 --> 00:08:40,409 humanity I come from a place that was 199 00:08:38,940 --> 00:08:42,570 occupied two or three times in my 200 00:08:40,409 --> 00:08:44,430 lifetime so can you imagine how much 201 00:08:42,570 --> 00:08:46,970 freedom of speech was something like 202 00:08:44,430 --> 00:08:49,529 dangerous and if you dare and go to 203 00:08:46,970 --> 00:08:51,390 express your your thought you're either 204 00:08:49,529 --> 00:08:54,390 in jail or if you're a politician you 205 00:08:51,390 --> 00:08:56,790 kill so we need the right part culture 206 00:08:54,390 --> 00:08:59,850 everyone good speakers corner is a must 207 00:08:56,790 --> 00:09:06,750 we live not a mile from speaker's corner 208 00:08:59,850 --> 00:09:10,470 and she's never yeah every time I go 209 00:09:06,750 --> 00:09:12,390 there I have a gusto so civilized it and 210 00:09:10,470 --> 00:09:15,029 of course it can't come to blows on the 211 00:09:12,390 --> 00:09:18,300 internet which is a another good thing 212 00:09:15,029 --> 00:09:20,790 the likes how does it compare with any 213 00:09:18,300 --> 00:09:23,310 other app or is there no comparison with 214 00:09:20,790 --> 00:09:25,160 any other actually or modesty I consider 215 00:09:23,310 --> 00:09:28,069 no there is no comparison because 216 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:30,379 the first app that allow unlimited video 217 00:09:28,069 --> 00:09:31,610 chats unlimited like usually it's one 218 00:09:30,379 --> 00:09:33,379 way you replied that's it 219 00:09:31,610 --> 00:09:36,259 if mr. George said something interesting 220 00:09:33,379 --> 00:09:38,750 topic you can have 2,000 3,000 4,000 221 00:09:36,259 --> 00:09:40,490 people sending videos either towards you 222 00:09:38,750 --> 00:09:40,879 or between each other it's like a spider 223 00:09:40,490 --> 00:09:43,699 web 224 00:09:40,879 --> 00:09:45,379 until today not even Facebook has it we 225 00:09:43,699 --> 00:09:46,759 have the live streaming and we are more 226 00:09:45,379 --> 00:09:52,579 advanced we'd have the anonymous 227 00:09:46,759 --> 00:09:55,430 anonymous something because I not as 228 00:09:52,579 --> 00:09:57,170 frustrated people wanted to share their 229 00:09:55,430 --> 00:09:59,449 misery but they're scared to say who 230 00:09:57,170 --> 00:10:01,399 when we give it when we give them the 231 00:09:59,449 --> 00:10:03,110 anonymous feature they were talking and 232 00:10:01,399 --> 00:10:04,579 talking and talking and talking this 233 00:10:03,110 --> 00:10:06,500 will change regimes this will change 234 00:10:04,579 --> 00:10:08,060 governments in a good way not in a bad 235 00:10:06,500 --> 00:10:10,040 way in a civilized way because people 236 00:10:08,060 --> 00:10:11,750 are starting to talk they were talking 237 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,850 on this issue on social media and they 238 00:10:11,750 --> 00:10:16,100 change the world now it will make it 239 00:10:13,850 --> 00:10:18,230 even a better place unfortunately if 240 00:10:16,100 --> 00:10:20,720 Edward countries they are always scared 241 00:10:18,230 --> 00:10:22,730 and they just wanna eat and worry about 242 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,110 raising the children when you give them 243 00:10:22,730 --> 00:10:26,810 a feature that they can't express 244 00:10:24,110 --> 00:10:29,180 themselves more without saying who they 245 00:10:26,810 --> 00:10:32,779 are typical for something like North 246 00:10:29,180 --> 00:10:34,490 Korea might someone try and close close 247 00:10:32,779 --> 00:10:37,399 you down could they close you down or is 248 00:10:34,490 --> 00:10:40,100 the internet above all they can try to 249 00:10:37,399 --> 00:10:41,689 close us down but we can we will survive 250 00:10:40,100 --> 00:10:43,939 same as Facebook and Twitter and 251 00:10:41,689 --> 00:10:45,769 Instagram you might be shut down for a 252 00:10:43,939 --> 00:10:52,459 few minutes maybe one hour that's it the 253 00:10:45,769 --> 00:10:54,740 Internet is intelligence as well so can 254 00:10:52,459 --> 00:10:56,600 you imagine well yeah when I entered 255 00:10:54,740 --> 00:11:03,769 Parliament there was no internet no 256 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:08,209 mobile phones no emails even the fax 257 00:11:03,769 --> 00:11:09,949 hadn't been warranted how's that you see 258 00:11:08,209 --> 00:11:11,750 why I'm slightly backward on the 259 00:11:09,949 --> 00:11:14,750 technical side of it but I'm quite good 260 00:11:11,750 --> 00:11:17,329 on a soapbox so I might just bring a 261 00:11:14,750 --> 00:11:19,370 soapbox to your site and do something 262 00:11:17,329 --> 00:11:21,500 how would I do that I just download the 263 00:11:19,370 --> 00:11:24,170 app now and you can log in from Facebook 264 00:11:21,500 --> 00:11:26,629 or Twitter or an email and you can start 265 00:11:24,170 --> 00:11:28,430 beaming that's it we want to have you 266 00:11:26,629 --> 00:11:31,100 will be honored to have someone like you 267 00:11:28,430 --> 00:11:32,660 on our platform and and how do you do it 268 00:11:31,100 --> 00:11:34,790 what's the what's the address was the 269 00:11:32,660 --> 00:11:36,319 internet that's Hyde Park Corner calm 270 00:11:34,790 --> 00:11:37,590 it's on either corner 271 00:11:36,319 --> 00:11:39,690 dock home yeah 272 00:11:37,590 --> 00:11:42,390 it's a great name I don't know why no 273 00:11:39,690 --> 00:11:44,990 British person of that but mind you I 274 00:11:42,390 --> 00:11:47,550 don't know why the British Royal Mail 275 00:11:44,990 --> 00:11:50,370 didn't think of being Google before 276 00:11:47,550 --> 00:11:52,050 Google if they had maybe with time I 277 00:11:50,370 --> 00:11:53,790 become a British citizen it will go back 278 00:11:52,050 --> 00:11:55,740 to the British people I trust me I 279 00:11:53,790 --> 00:11:59,130 consider this project is for the British 280 00:11:55,740 --> 00:12:01,020 not for me I'm just making some people's 281 00:11:59,130 --> 00:12:03,270 life better at Redwood countries and 282 00:12:01,020 --> 00:12:05,850 where I come from and yeah my partners 283 00:12:03,270 --> 00:12:07,590 for Hyde Park it is correct to be proud 284 00:12:05,850 --> 00:12:10,170 of the things that are worth being proud 285 00:12:07,590 --> 00:12:12,810 of and if you're a critic of Britain 286 00:12:10,170 --> 00:12:16,140 like I am there is something to be proud 287 00:12:12,810 --> 00:12:21,030 of Heydrich or not I come here I come 288 00:12:16,140 --> 00:12:22,860 yeah thank you so much thank you very 289 00:12:21,030 --> 00:12:25,620 much and thank you for us your things 290 00:12:22,860 --> 00:12:27,480 right coming up next a former adviser to 291 00:12:25,620 --> 00:12:29,310 the government of Australia on the 292 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:32,480 dangerous rivalry between India and 293 00:12:29,310 --> 00:12:32,480 China don't miss it 294 00:12:32,950 --> 00:12:36,529 you 295 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,529 [Music] 296 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:45,290 [Music] 297 00:12:42,309 --> 00:12:47,119 welcome back to Sputnik the two most 298 00:12:45,290 --> 00:12:50,029 populous countries on the earth 299 00:12:47,119 --> 00:12:52,850 China and India both nuclear-armed are 300 00:12:50,029 --> 00:12:55,069 in a dangerous standoff which could turn 301 00:12:52,850 --> 00:12:57,649 into war at any moment 302 00:12:55,069 --> 00:12:59,389 big news you'd think but it's not big 303 00:12:57,649 --> 00:13:02,449 news or for most people 304 00:12:59,389 --> 00:13:05,029 any size news at all the rivalry is not 305 00:13:02,449 --> 00:13:07,429 just about maps of course but about the 306 00:13:05,029 --> 00:13:09,379 growth and growth of to be a moth 307 00:13:07,429 --> 00:13:11,989 economies and the different political 308 00:13:09,379 --> 00:13:15,499 paths they've taken our guest is dr. 309 00:13:11,989 --> 00:13:18,169 Khedira Pythia goda a former adviser to 310 00:13:15,499 --> 00:13:20,449 the government of Australia a fellow at 311 00:13:18,169 --> 00:13:22,639 the Brookings Institute a former 312 00:13:20,449 --> 00:13:25,910 visiting scholar at Oxford University 313 00:13:22,639 --> 00:13:28,999 and a former diplomat representing 314 00:13:25,910 --> 00:13:31,519 Australia overseas not about TV for such 315 00:13:28,999 --> 00:13:35,359 a young man doctor thanks for joining us 316 00:13:31,519 --> 00:13:37,549 on the sputnik tell the people most of 317 00:13:35,359 --> 00:13:39,739 whom have no idea that there's a problem 318 00:13:37,549 --> 00:13:41,540 between India and China what the 319 00:13:39,739 --> 00:13:45,019 proximate reason for the current 320 00:13:41,540 --> 00:13:47,929 standoff is so there's a disputed border 321 00:13:45,019 --> 00:13:51,109 between the two countries and recently 322 00:13:47,929 --> 00:13:53,329 Chinese troops had begun building a road 323 00:13:51,109 --> 00:13:56,539 sorry I should say there's a three way 324 00:13:53,329 --> 00:13:59,559 sort of issue here so Bhutan claims some 325 00:13:56,539 --> 00:14:03,019 of the land which China also claims and 326 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:07,069 the Chinese troops had started building 327 00:14:03,019 --> 00:14:08,749 a road on that land and India found that 328 00:14:07,069 --> 00:14:11,779 to be quite a sensitive issue for 329 00:14:08,749 --> 00:14:14,689 themselves because that bit of land is 330 00:14:11,779 --> 00:14:17,029 connected to an area which they call the 331 00:14:14,689 --> 00:14:19,789 chicken neck which is a narrow strip of 332 00:14:17,029 --> 00:14:22,489 land in India which connects India to 333 00:14:19,789 --> 00:14:25,009 its northeastern states and if China 334 00:14:22,489 --> 00:14:26,989 were to have strategic access to that it 335 00:14:25,009 --> 00:14:29,389 would spell quite a significant threat 336 00:14:26,989 --> 00:14:34,519 to India so India then sent troops to 337 00:14:29,389 --> 00:14:36,529 the border and supported Bouton's claims 338 00:14:34,519 --> 00:14:38,839 and Bouton's complaints about China 339 00:14:36,529 --> 00:14:40,939 building that road and then you've had 340 00:14:38,839 --> 00:14:44,059 incidences of stone-throwing between the 341 00:14:40,939 --> 00:14:45,889 troops and it's become a big sort of 342 00:14:44,059 --> 00:14:48,850 diplomatic stash between the two major 343 00:14:45,889 --> 00:14:51,560 powers in addition to the fact that it's 344 00:14:48,850 --> 00:15:00,450 very close to that chicken neck 345 00:14:51,560 --> 00:15:04,440 area.also there's a big definitely true 346 00:15:00,450 --> 00:15:07,200 but I guess also the area which in 347 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:09,300 India's northeast has seen insurgents 348 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,310 and separatists as well so I think it's 349 00:15:09,300 --> 00:15:13,560 quite sensitive India but also there's a 350 00:15:11,310 --> 00:15:16,490 lot of symbolism associated with this so 351 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:19,050 if you look at both India and China as 352 00:15:16,490 --> 00:15:21,390 former colonies I guess 353 00:15:19,050 --> 00:15:23,430 India's a former colony and China was 354 00:15:21,390 --> 00:15:27,360 sort of subjugated by the West for a 355 00:15:23,430 --> 00:15:29,160 long time they both have this intense 356 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:32,250 attachment to protecting their their 357 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:35,820 territory and so they see that any sort 358 00:15:32,250 --> 00:15:37,470 of infringement on territory is it 359 00:15:35,820 --> 00:15:39,870 really riles up the people in both of 360 00:15:37,470 --> 00:15:42,480 those countries and so for India where 361 00:15:39,870 --> 00:15:44,399 it's a democracy the government needs to 362 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:46,620 act strong that it's protecting its 363 00:15:44,399 --> 00:15:50,730 territory for China the Communist Party 364 00:15:46,620 --> 00:15:52,589 is legitimacy lays partly on being able 365 00:15:50,730 --> 00:15:54,990 to maintain the territorial integrity of 366 00:15:52,589 --> 00:15:58,560 of China obviously you've got issues 367 00:15:54,990 --> 00:16:00,930 like Taiwan as well so if the symbolic 368 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:04,250 important is is very great for these two 369 00:16:00,930 --> 00:16:07,199 countries well China has more than one 370 00:16:04,250 --> 00:16:09,570 territorial conflict with more than one 371 00:16:07,199 --> 00:16:12,029 country of course there are conflicts 372 00:16:09,570 --> 00:16:15,870 with Vietnam there are conflicts with 373 00:16:12,029 --> 00:16:18,630 with Taiwan with Japan there's conflict 374 00:16:15,870 --> 00:16:21,480 in the sea there's conflict on the land 375 00:16:18,630 --> 00:16:26,339 I returned to my point china isn't short 376 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:28,980 of territory so why is it so keep on 377 00:16:26,339 --> 00:16:30,930 expanding its territory or defending why 378 00:16:28,980 --> 00:16:33,029 it says is its territory that is 379 00:16:30,930 --> 00:16:35,790 disputed by other people yeah so I think 380 00:16:33,029 --> 00:16:38,370 that I mean it's it's very interesting 381 00:16:35,790 --> 00:16:40,680 because you've got this sort of dual 382 00:16:38,370 --> 00:16:43,350 messaging going on you've got you know 383 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,970 China having these conflicts with a lot 384 00:16:43,350 --> 00:16:47,519 of its neighbors at the same time trying 385 00:16:44,970 --> 00:16:50,279 to project this peaceful rise of China 386 00:16:47,519 --> 00:16:53,100 rhetoric and Bunnell and benevolent 387 00:16:50,279 --> 00:16:54,480 leader kind of rhetoric where you've got 388 00:16:53,100 --> 00:16:56,220 the belt and Road initiative where 389 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:59,370 China's tries to project itself as a 390 00:16:56,220 --> 00:17:01,740 peaceful leader and you know employing a 391 00:16:59,370 --> 00:17:04,740 lot of I guess Confucian language in 392 00:17:01,740 --> 00:17:06,150 doing so but at the same time I guess 393 00:17:04,740 --> 00:17:08,730 it's trying to use a stick and carrot 394 00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:10,890 approach so there are certain underlying 395 00:17:08,730 --> 00:17:13,710 tensions with India as well and I think 396 00:17:10,890 --> 00:17:17,520 one of the major concerns for China with 397 00:17:13,710 --> 00:17:19,800 regard to India is if India were to ally 398 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:22,280 with the United States and countries 399 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:24,900 like Japan in efforts to contain China 400 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:28,020 and I guess that's one of China's 401 00:17:24,900 --> 00:17:29,790 greatest concerns is that if there is 402 00:17:28,020 --> 00:17:32,160 some kind of a conflict with the United 403 00:17:29,790 --> 00:17:33,570 States it may be it might have its trade 404 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,670 routes cut off and India is in a very 405 00:17:33,570 --> 00:17:38,640 strategic position to do that in the 406 00:17:35,670 --> 00:17:40,950 Indian Ocean yeah it's a concern bill 407 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:43,980 you think it's with all the other things 408 00:17:40,950 --> 00:17:46,950 on Trump's agenda yeah well I think the 409 00:17:43,980 --> 00:17:49,020 irony is that it's kind of a 410 00:17:46,950 --> 00:17:52,800 self-fulfilling prophecy in the sense 411 00:17:49,020 --> 00:17:54,510 that if it does push India then it makes 412 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:57,270 it more likely that India will go 413 00:17:54,510 --> 00:17:59,280 towards the United States yeah so it's 414 00:17:57,270 --> 00:18:01,470 it's quite a difficult issue for them to 415 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:04,470 handle I think now you describe India's 416 00:18:01,470 --> 00:18:06,780 democracy which up to a point everyone 417 00:18:04,470 --> 00:18:10,010 could agree with though it's a very 418 00:18:06,780 --> 00:18:15,360 imperfect one many many internal 419 00:18:10,010 --> 00:18:19,830 problems and rising tide of violence and 420 00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:22,620 fanaticism you imply that China is not a 421 00:18:19,830 --> 00:18:24,570 democracy I would argue it's a democracy 422 00:18:22,620 --> 00:18:26,730 of a different kind only but the one 423 00:18:24,570 --> 00:18:31,310 thing you couldn't argue with is that 424 00:18:26,730 --> 00:18:33,480 these are two increasingly gigantic 425 00:18:31,310 --> 00:18:37,680 third-world behemoths 426 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:40,110 huge beasts and surely if they could get 427 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:43,620 along with each other they'd actually be 428 00:18:40,110 --> 00:18:46,920 able to better beat those who did 429 00:18:43,620 --> 00:18:49,220 colonize them both in the past yeah so I 430 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:51,720 think that's that's some of the sort of 431 00:18:49,220 --> 00:18:54,510 intentions of China in a sense then that 432 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,980 it tries to I guess through the belt and 433 00:18:54,510 --> 00:18:58,740 road it tries to unite a lot of the 434 00:18:55,980 --> 00:19:01,710 countries in Asia and with itself as 435 00:18:58,740 --> 00:19:04,140 seen as a leader and it is true in that 436 00:19:01,710 --> 00:19:05,790 as to rising developing countries they 437 00:19:04,140 --> 00:19:09,330 have convergent interests in a lot of 438 00:19:05,790 --> 00:19:11,580 areas so in addition to economic 439 00:19:09,330 --> 00:19:14,340 partnerships and trade they both want 440 00:19:11,580 --> 00:19:16,650 I guess fairer global trade rules they 441 00:19:14,340 --> 00:19:18,120 both want a greater say in international 442 00:19:16,650 --> 00:19:20,520 institutions and rule made 443 00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:22,740 they want to reshape the global order 444 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:25,919 and I think most importantly they both 445 00:19:22,740 --> 00:19:27,870 want a multipolar World Order where it's 446 00:19:25,919 --> 00:19:29,940 not just the West that purely dominates 447 00:19:27,870 --> 00:19:31,950 and other countries also can have 448 00:19:29,940 --> 00:19:34,380 influence so there is a lot of potential 449 00:19:31,950 --> 00:19:36,360 of cooperation there I think if some of 450 00:19:34,380 --> 00:19:39,210 these sort of smaller specific issues 451 00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:40,919 were were sort of gotten over yeah you 452 00:19:39,210 --> 00:19:43,950 see there is no ask I'm wondering if 453 00:19:40,919 --> 00:19:46,380 someone's stirring it up because if I 454 00:19:43,950 --> 00:19:48,750 look at it objectively there is no good 455 00:19:46,380 --> 00:19:49,980 enough reason for China and India to be 456 00:19:48,750 --> 00:19:51,960 at each other's throats 457 00:19:49,980 --> 00:19:55,880 even if at the moment it's just throwing 458 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:59,789 stones but I could see many reasons why 459 00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:02,419 another power would want to have them 460 00:19:59,789 --> 00:20:05,779 ranged against each other on the 461 00:20:02,419 --> 00:20:09,539 wonderful principle of divide and rule 462 00:20:05,779 --> 00:20:12,419 you could think of nothing more perfect 463 00:20:09,539 --> 00:20:15,210 than the two greatest developing 464 00:20:12,419 --> 00:20:17,669 economies actually being enemies of each 465 00:20:15,210 --> 00:20:19,649 other yes and I mean I think if you're 466 00:20:17,669 --> 00:20:27,390 talking about the United States the Bush 467 00:20:19,649 --> 00:20:29,070 administration you got it I mean the 468 00:20:27,390 --> 00:20:31,470 Bush administration really went a long 469 00:20:29,070 --> 00:20:33,120 way in that I mean that and the rhetoric 470 00:20:31,470 --> 00:20:35,039 around that time was really that they're 471 00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:38,010 going to use try and use India to 472 00:20:35,039 --> 00:20:40,919 balance China and the indo-us nuclear 473 00:20:38,010 --> 00:20:43,470 deal was an attempt to do that Obama 474 00:20:40,919 --> 00:20:44,880 said that India will the india-us 475 00:20:43,470 --> 00:20:47,370 relationship will be one of the most 476 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:49,559 important so they're really laying out 477 00:20:47,370 --> 00:20:52,620 the red carpet to try and attract India 478 00:20:49,559 --> 00:20:55,830 but I think the the issue is that India 479 00:20:52,620 --> 00:20:58,799 has always had this I guess principle of 480 00:20:55,830 --> 00:21:01,409 strategic autonomy being a post-colonial 481 00:20:58,799 --> 00:21:03,659 country that it never seeks to ally with 482 00:21:01,409 --> 00:21:05,070 any particular country but it will 483 00:21:03,659 --> 00:21:08,190 pursue its interest so I think what 484 00:21:05,070 --> 00:21:10,049 India will do is use the United States 485 00:21:08,190 --> 00:21:11,970 when it needs to get leverage with China 486 00:21:10,049 --> 00:21:13,289 against China it would use China when it 487 00:21:11,970 --> 00:21:16,169 needs to get leverage against the United 488 00:21:13,289 --> 00:21:19,770 States and they'll play that game it has 489 00:21:16,169 --> 00:21:23,159 been a paradoxical period or I mean for 490 00:21:19,770 --> 00:21:26,820 many decades before you were around in 491 00:21:23,159 --> 00:21:29,789 your lofty positions India was an 492 00:21:26,820 --> 00:21:31,210 historic ally of the then Soviet Union 493 00:21:29,789 --> 00:21:33,640 as long as Congress 494 00:21:31,210 --> 00:21:37,179 power you could generally say the India 495 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:42,520 took a pro-russian pro-soviet line in 496 00:21:37,179 --> 00:21:47,590 things Modi Hindu nationalists of quite 497 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:51,299 an extreme variety has come to power now 498 00:21:47,590 --> 00:21:55,029 consolidated they would appear his power 499 00:21:51,299 --> 00:21:58,029 but he hasn't taken India entirely into 500 00:21:55,029 --> 00:22:02,230 the American orbit mean he's made very 501 00:21:58,029 --> 00:22:05,890 successful visits to to both China and 502 00:22:02,230 --> 00:22:08,110 to Russia he's spreading his purchases 503 00:22:05,890 --> 00:22:11,080 of weapons and so on across many 504 00:22:08,110 --> 00:22:13,799 countries do you credit Modi whatever 505 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:18,039 other criticisms I might make of him 506 00:22:13,799 --> 00:22:20,409 with a fairly savvy approach to 507 00:22:18,039 --> 00:22:22,870 international relations to a certain 508 00:22:20,409 --> 00:22:24,580 degree I think he does have that and I 509 00:22:22,870 --> 00:22:27,520 guess I think he's continuing on a 510 00:22:24,580 --> 00:22:30,010 tradition of Indian foreign policy where 511 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:32,799 they do try to to take a savvy approach 512 00:22:30,010 --> 00:22:34,990 I think that in the Nehru era that you 513 00:22:32,799 --> 00:22:37,840 mentioned they were much more idealistic 514 00:22:34,990 --> 00:22:40,179 and they they sort of they had a lot of 515 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,740 third words third world solidarity with 516 00:22:40,179 --> 00:22:44,289 Indonesia as well and with the 517 00:22:41,740 --> 00:22:46,450 non-aligned movement and I think even 518 00:22:44,289 --> 00:22:49,000 with China they had a sort of good 519 00:22:46,450 --> 00:22:51,789 relationship until the war so I think 520 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:54,039 that since the end of the 90s though 521 00:22:51,789 --> 00:22:56,529 Indian leaders have traditionally taken 522 00:22:54,039 --> 00:22:58,390 a more strategic approach and I think 523 00:22:56,529 --> 00:23:00,669 that's what Modi has been trying so it's 524 00:22:58,390 --> 00:23:02,500 interesting that you know he's known in 525 00:23:00,669 --> 00:23:05,710 India for having a bad relationship with 526 00:23:02,500 --> 00:23:08,649 Muslims and you know for his his when he 527 00:23:05,710 --> 00:23:10,600 was the governor of the Chief Minister 528 00:23:08,649 --> 00:23:13,899 of Gujarat and there were those riots 529 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,700 there but interestingly he's paid so 530 00:23:13,899 --> 00:23:18,279 many visits to Middle Eastern Muslim 531 00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:20,200 countries and and he's built sort of 532 00:23:18,279 --> 00:23:22,149 strengthened India's ties with a lot of 533 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,669 these Muslim countries so you kind of 534 00:23:22,149 --> 00:23:28,000 good at playing both sides a lot of the 535 00:23:24,669 --> 00:23:31,029 time India is what Russia used to be 536 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:36,520 said to be an enigma wrapped in a 537 00:23:31,029 --> 00:23:39,580 mystery and so on so the future are the 538 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:44,090 stones the limit or or might they start 539 00:23:39,580 --> 00:23:47,270 throw something hotter well I think 540 00:23:44,090 --> 00:23:49,760 I would say that it's unlikely that it 541 00:23:47,270 --> 00:23:53,210 would turn into a proper armed conflict 542 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:55,760 Indians generally quite cautious when it 543 00:23:53,210 --> 00:23:58,880 comes to to Wars and military activity 544 00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:02,240 even with you know a country which like 545 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:05,090 Pakistan over which it has a great 546 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,760 strategic advantage and obviously with 547 00:24:05,090 --> 00:24:09,710 China it's got a massive disadvantage 548 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:13,130 and I think China also is really seeking 549 00:24:09,710 --> 00:24:15,860 to contain some of these some of these 550 00:24:13,130 --> 00:24:20,510 issues so I guess it's just a matter of 551 00:24:15,860 --> 00:24:22,730 how they can sell a peaceful outcome to 552 00:24:20,510 --> 00:24:24,770 their domestic populations and have a 553 00:24:22,730 --> 00:24:27,770 sort of political gain and not be seen 554 00:24:24,770 --> 00:24:30,169 to be backing down and I think the BRICS 555 00:24:27,770 --> 00:24:33,020 summit is coming up as well which is a 556 00:24:30,169 --> 00:24:36,409 good place to fix it your excellency 557 00:24:33,020 --> 00:24:41,600 thanks for joining us thank you very 558 00:24:36,409 --> 00:24:43,520 much I know it's your turn to tell us 559 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,950 what you think through the portals of 560 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:48,380 social media what's rattling Gayatri so 561 00:24:45,950 --> 00:24:50,270 in all honesty I actually didn't know 562 00:24:48,380 --> 00:24:51,679 either about the standoff between China 563 00:24:50,270 --> 00:24:53,600 and India so I looked around on the 564 00:24:51,679 --> 00:24:55,850 Twitter sphere and I couldn't find many 565 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:58,159 people knowing about it the few that 566 00:24:55,850 --> 00:25:00,679 were around are amongst Saturn and 567 00:24:58,159 --> 00:25:02,059 Dumaine saying China's harsh language on 568 00:25:00,679 --> 00:25:04,399 the top-line standoff 569 00:25:02,059 --> 00:25:08,120 shows it has no intention of treating 570 00:25:04,399 --> 00:25:11,360 India as an equal and Claudio Takeo says 571 00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:14,179 Japan has on August 18 expressed support 572 00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:16,130 for India's stand on its own now more 573 00:25:14,179 --> 00:25:18,620 than two months also clumb standoff 574 00:25:16,130 --> 00:25:20,450 surprise surprise I mean Japan is 575 00:25:18,620 --> 00:25:22,970 supporting India because it's against 576 00:25:20,450 --> 00:25:26,559 China the u.s. is supporting India 577 00:25:22,970 --> 00:25:28,880 because it's against right so it's all 578 00:25:26,559 --> 00:25:32,270 geopolitics but the thing is these 579 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:33,860 confrontations can easily catch fire and 580 00:25:32,270 --> 00:25:36,169 that's all the tweeting that time for 581 00:25:33,860 --> 00:25:37,789 today which alas means that's the end of 582 00:25:36,169 --> 00:25:40,880 the show but you can stay in touch with 583 00:25:37,789 --> 00:25:43,039 us on Facebook Sputnik on Russia today 584 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,500 or on Twitter and Instagram 585 00:25:43,039 --> 00:25:47,690 RT underscore Sputnik it's goodbye from 586 00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:50,770 me Gayatri and for me George Galloway 587 00:25:47,690 --> 00:25:50,770 it's been marvelous 588 00:25:54,930 --> 00:25:57,989 [Music] 589 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,449 [Music]